You’ve summed this up far more articulately than I could, Polly. I look at him the same way I do Johnson or Trump and think, just why would you? The whole ‘certain age’ thing has me incandescent with impotent rage. What EXACTLY, Mr GW, does that mean?
He seems to mean: ‘you don’t know what you’re talking about because you’re too old, except: you’re the same age / younger than me, which means, *I* don’t know what I’m talking about…’
I read it as meaning, at least in part, ‘they’re just jealous old hags, angry because I wasn’t interested in them’ . I’m very much MCWOACA & whenever I encounter men like this, I always think in your dreams, mate, in your dreams.
I worked in radio in the 90’s and 00’s and remember the funny, sad, and bad behaviour that went on. I totally agree with every word of this article Polly. I’ve never felt even remotely traumatised or hurt by male behaviour but have genuinely questioned whether I should have been.
My boss, who was ten years older than me and who I massively looked up to, walked me out to my car after we’d worked late one night. I turned to say goodnight and he kissed me ‘full on’. I was so utterly astounded, I just stood motionless then turned around, said good night, got in my car and drove off. I was genuinely shocked and by the next morning was mortified at walking into the office. Believe me though, my embarrassment was nothing compared to his. He apologised over and over again and actually made me a compilation CD tape of ‘apology’ songs (looking back this was far more disturbing 😂) I just found it sad and pathetic but should I have been offended, horrified or mad? And how would I feel if my daughter told me it had just happened to her today?
An excellent piece. A quick scroll suggests that all or nearly all those commenting are women—which is understandable—but I think there are a lot of men who ought to read and reflect on this. Sadly I suspect those who most need to are least likely to do so…
You are so right! How's this a case of SDOMAM? I was on a night out with a school mum a few years back when we bumped into a school dad (one of those guys who had played rugby in his youth and was still going on about it even though though, these days, all he did was stand on the sidelines watching his kids. You know the type - well into his 40s, a massive hulk of a guy, but where the muscle had turned into something less firm from lack of exercise and too many pints. Anyway, I digress..... when he ascertained that I was not with my husband (who is very hot in my books), he told me that my hubby was mad to let me out without him and that if I was his wife, he wouldn't let me out of his sight. He proceeded to then try to badmouth my husband (who he doesn't know btw) by stating that he should grow some balls and be more assertive and then finished by pinning me up against the wall (which I'm sure he thought was sexy) and letting me know in great (x rated) detail what he would like to do to me. In that moment I couldn't believe the audacity of the man and my blood began to boil. Safe and surrounded by other bar goers I felt it only fitting to let him know what a total loser he was and that he was PATHETIC! Looking back I must say that had I have been alone I think I would have felt very scared indeed. The arrogance and self confidence of some men really does know no bounds! 😒
I think the point here is probably that those of us with a 'voice' (such as journalists / writes etc) speak up for those without a voice.
Also telling him to f*ck off - be cause we can handle idiots like him - doesn't really address the crux of the problem - which is that he's a misogynistic pig - and unfortunately only reflects the many, many, many out there like him - who still don't get that we're not in 1978 anymore. If we think we have equality yet then we are very wrong.
I think sometimes telling some men to fuck off is appropriate and commensurate, or at least, that’s how it feels to us in the moment - and that’s ok. It’s tough for women to respond in any way other than the way we respond. That’s sort of what I was trying to express; we all respond differently, and there’s no right or wrong in that.
I suppose I'm saying that responding in kind via the terms and action that they understand - fuck off etc - isn't getting us anywhere. We're still fighting the same fight that our mother's and grandmother's faught. Maybe it's time to try a new way / rather than if you can't beat em join em. Everyone can of course respond however they respond and that is totally fine. I just get worked up waiting for the revolution which still hasn't happened - and won't in my lifetime
A colleague of a friend of mine is the only woman on the board of the company she works for. At a board meeting the managing director said the reward for the top sales performer would be "they get to fuck Jane". This was only a couple of years ago. Unbelievable!
I am not surprised by this and hope very much your colleague's friend came through ok. I was at board level when my manager, the MD, decided to brush cake crumbs off my front - that's what he said he was doing. I was so shocked, I just sat there like a big fat pudding. I wasn't able to go to HR because I was the group HR director.
The person who helped me move from shock to action was another very senior man whose immediate reaction was to offer to support me to raise it formally, which I did. The group board delegated the investigation to him so he was no longer able to act as my support and accompany me through the process but I came out of the interview where he took my statement to find another senior man, the CEO of another part of the group, waiting for me to make sure I was ok and walk back to the office with me.
I think the inappropriate touching was all about power and my role - if he could do it to the HR director he could do it to anyone. You won't be surprised to read that it turned out I wasn't the only one. It was an awful, awful experience and really shook me up, but I am so thankful to the two men that believed me immediately and stood by me. I thought they were my friends and they really were. As for the MD, he was dealt with and I never saw him again after the day investigation started.
Well, that’s completely awful, I am so sorry (and the mundane vileness of it, ‘brushing crumbs’,!) but I am also so glad that two other men stood with you, and he was dealt with. There are good men out there, too.
There was yet another senior man I did not tell until the investigation started because he would have punched the MD, who was also his manager. The support you get from the people around you, who can be male and female, is a big part of coming through without being too damaged- it's having your own tribe validating your reactions and feelings, which is what you are creating here.
Love this. I have worked in finance for over ten years and it still remains a male dominated profession. When the dialogue edges into the realm of the inappropriate I normally feel nothing but sad for them and then tend to give as good as I get. On a positive note; it doesn't seem to be as big an issue with the next generation of men coming up the career ladder. That is purely based on my own experience. I am hoping that continues. Great writing Polly.
Love this Polly, the best piece I’ve read on this subject. Helped me to clarify in my head how I felt about it. I too fall in to the dispatch the dipshits category but I was feeling guilty about it. Now I get it! Just heard it’s the second most read article in the Times this morning so far 👌
I’m with you on that I just in the past brushed it off or felt sorry for the pathetic beings. Sometimes I feel guilty that I don’t get more upset. Does that make sense. It’s just most of it goes over my head or under my feet
Another brilliant article - you have summed it up so well! I was incandesent with rage at the continual crap coming out of certain middle age men's mouths against women recently (eg Elon too) but reading your article has made me feel better as it isn't just me in my middle age female mind. You need to get some badges made and sell them to us as the superior feminists - Polly Vernon fans - ignore the aubergine heads; etc. thanks Polly - you are such a enjoyable and truthful writer (and although I love Caitlin Moran - you should have won the prize).
Excellent, visceral work Polly, as are the comments. It’s actually too shocking how utterly I/we were shocked by this years ago. There are too many examples I’ve just written off as “that’s just Mick/Alan/Brian” over the years. I’m now MCWOACA and absolutely do not put up with it anymore. Kisses to all x
Maybe we should all just say to the offenders, eff off, grow up, stop being a t..t and go look in a bloody mirror. You really aren't all that wonderful and no, your'e not funny either. Caveat for the lovely etc etc men out there obviously. Caveat also for the genuinely creepy, predatory, dangerous individuals, there's a special place in hell for them.
Yes Polly! let’s just carry a mirror about our person and hold it up when they start. Agree 100% about prison tho that’s another conversation re convictions and the success rate there!
I've been doing the same all week. When I was new to a team, the man who asked me far too many personal questions including about my sex life. When I told my female colleagues, they said "oh yeah, it's your turn, he's already tried all that with us". We waited until the end of the contract to complain about him but at least we were told he wouldn't be reemployed.
Then there was the older man who said "you look just like my girlfriend, she has hair your colour, she's a Pilates teacher and she's your age too". After she broke up with him, and after I left that role, I bumped into him in the office one day. He did a bait-and-switch by going in for a cheek kiss and turning his head at the last minute so our lips collided - gross. I had already been told there was no point complaining about him as nothing ever stuck.
Or going way back, the time I was still at school but did work experience on a newspaper where the men said "why do you ladies always wear trousers now, we never get to see a bit of leg these days".
Finally there's the IRL encounter I had with Gregg Wallace, at the Waitrose Summer Party one year (can't really get more middle class than that but I was in my early 30s so not Of A Certain Age at the time). I didn't meet him thank goodness but his voice was loud enough to carry to where I was, not particularly nearby. I forget what he said but the impression was lasting - he was absolutely vile.
You’ve summed this up far more articulately than I could, Polly. I look at him the same way I do Johnson or Trump and think, just why would you? The whole ‘certain age’ thing has me incandescent with impotent rage. What EXACTLY, Mr GW, does that mean?
He seems to mean: ‘you don’t know what you’re talking about because you’re too old, except: you’re the same age / younger than me, which means, *I* don’t know what I’m talking about…’
I read it as meaning, at least in part, ‘they’re just jealous old hags, angry because I wasn’t interested in them’ . I’m very much MCWOACA & whenever I encounter men like this, I always think in your dreams, mate, in your dreams.
That’s because you are entirely right.
Good reaction, Katherine.
I worked in radio in the 90’s and 00’s and remember the funny, sad, and bad behaviour that went on. I totally agree with every word of this article Polly. I’ve never felt even remotely traumatised or hurt by male behaviour but have genuinely questioned whether I should have been.
My boss, who was ten years older than me and who I massively looked up to, walked me out to my car after we’d worked late one night. I turned to say goodnight and he kissed me ‘full on’. I was so utterly astounded, I just stood motionless then turned around, said good night, got in my car and drove off. I was genuinely shocked and by the next morning was mortified at walking into the office. Believe me though, my embarrassment was nothing compared to his. He apologised over and over again and actually made me a compilation CD tape of ‘apology’ songs (looking back this was far more disturbing 😂) I just found it sad and pathetic but should I have been offended, horrified or mad? And how would I feel if my daughter told me it had just happened to her today?
Great thought provoking article as always
HE MADE YOU A COMPILATION TAPE? That’s hilarious and disturbing and such testimony to the emotional teenager he was. FFS!
An excellent piece. A quick scroll suggests that all or nearly all those commenting are women—which is understandable—but I think there are a lot of men who ought to read and reflect on this. Sadly I suspect those who most need to are least likely to do so…
Thank you!
You are so right! How's this a case of SDOMAM? I was on a night out with a school mum a few years back when we bumped into a school dad (one of those guys who had played rugby in his youth and was still going on about it even though though, these days, all he did was stand on the sidelines watching his kids. You know the type - well into his 40s, a massive hulk of a guy, but where the muscle had turned into something less firm from lack of exercise and too many pints. Anyway, I digress..... when he ascertained that I was not with my husband (who is very hot in my books), he told me that my hubby was mad to let me out without him and that if I was his wife, he wouldn't let me out of his sight. He proceeded to then try to badmouth my husband (who he doesn't know btw) by stating that he should grow some balls and be more assertive and then finished by pinning me up against the wall (which I'm sure he thought was sexy) and letting me know in great (x rated) detail what he would like to do to me. In that moment I couldn't believe the audacity of the man and my blood began to boil. Safe and surrounded by other bar goers I felt it only fitting to let him know what a total loser he was and that he was PATHETIC! Looking back I must say that had I have been alone I think I would have felt very scared indeed. The arrogance and self confidence of some men really does know no bounds! 😒
Oh my GOD that is top level SDOMAMing…. And the rugby youth thing! Classic
I think the point here is probably that those of us with a 'voice' (such as journalists / writes etc) speak up for those without a voice.
Also telling him to f*ck off - be cause we can handle idiots like him - doesn't really address the crux of the problem - which is that he's a misogynistic pig - and unfortunately only reflects the many, many, many out there like him - who still don't get that we're not in 1978 anymore. If we think we have equality yet then we are very wrong.
I think sometimes telling some men to fuck off is appropriate and commensurate, or at least, that’s how it feels to us in the moment - and that’s ok. It’s tough for women to respond in any way other than the way we respond. That’s sort of what I was trying to express; we all respond differently, and there’s no right or wrong in that.
I suppose I'm saying that responding in kind via the terms and action that they understand - fuck off etc - isn't getting us anywhere. We're still fighting the same fight that our mother's and grandmother's faught. Maybe it's time to try a new way / rather than if you can't beat em join em. Everyone can of course respond however they respond and that is totally fine. I just get worked up waiting for the revolution which still hasn't happened - and won't in my lifetime
Oh always up for new ideas!
A colleague of a friend of mine is the only woman on the board of the company she works for. At a board meeting the managing director said the reward for the top sales performer would be "they get to fuck Jane". This was only a couple of years ago. Unbelievable!
Excuse my French but FUCK ME! What the actual?
I am not surprised by this and hope very much your colleague's friend came through ok. I was at board level when my manager, the MD, decided to brush cake crumbs off my front - that's what he said he was doing. I was so shocked, I just sat there like a big fat pudding. I wasn't able to go to HR because I was the group HR director.
The person who helped me move from shock to action was another very senior man whose immediate reaction was to offer to support me to raise it formally, which I did. The group board delegated the investigation to him so he was no longer able to act as my support and accompany me through the process but I came out of the interview where he took my statement to find another senior man, the CEO of another part of the group, waiting for me to make sure I was ok and walk back to the office with me.
I think the inappropriate touching was all about power and my role - if he could do it to the HR director he could do it to anyone. You won't be surprised to read that it turned out I wasn't the only one. It was an awful, awful experience and really shook me up, but I am so thankful to the two men that believed me immediately and stood by me. I thought they were my friends and they really were. As for the MD, he was dealt with and I never saw him again after the day investigation started.
Well, that’s completely awful, I am so sorry (and the mundane vileness of it, ‘brushing crumbs’,!) but I am also so glad that two other men stood with you, and he was dealt with. There are good men out there, too.
There was yet another senior man I did not tell until the investigation started because he would have punched the MD, who was also his manager. The support you get from the people around you, who can be male and female, is a big part of coming through without being too damaged- it's having your own tribe validating your reactions and feelings, which is what you are creating here.
Oh you are so very right. It’s incredibly important.
Did she report that?
Love this. I have worked in finance for over ten years and it still remains a male dominated profession. When the dialogue edges into the realm of the inappropriate I normally feel nothing but sad for them and then tend to give as good as I get. On a positive note; it doesn't seem to be as big an issue with the next generation of men coming up the career ladder. That is purely based on my own experience. I am hoping that continues. Great writing Polly.
💋💋💋
Love this Polly, the best piece I’ve read on this subject. Helped me to clarify in my head how I felt about it. I too fall in to the dispatch the dipshits category but I was feeling guilty about it. Now I get it! Just heard it’s the second most read article in the Times this morning so far 👌
Oh thanks for the intel on my times stats! Most rewarding.
And that’s very kind of you! Really appreciate it xx
So fantastically articulated! Too many SDOMAMs cutting about workplaces, I will no longer ignore or be complicit the way I don’t out of work
Luckily never been a direct victim of it, but have sadly assuaged and supported others who have
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I’m with you on that I just in the past brushed it off or felt sorry for the pathetic beings. Sometimes I feel guilty that I don’t get more upset. Does that make sense. It’s just most of it goes over my head or under my feet
Same. I’m not sure you can make yourself be upset about something which really doesn’t upset you.
Good point. I’ll just carry on as I am
Another brilliant article - you have summed it up so well! I was incandesent with rage at the continual crap coming out of certain middle age men's mouths against women recently (eg Elon too) but reading your article has made me feel better as it isn't just me in my middle age female mind. You need to get some badges made and sell them to us as the superior feminists - Polly Vernon fans - ignore the aubergine heads; etc. thanks Polly - you are such a enjoyable and truthful writer (and although I love Caitlin Moran - you should have won the prize).
Thank you my darling! It’s absolutely Them not Us. It’s not like they have oceans of respect for younger women, is it?
And I can let Caitlin have if this year.. she’s not bad, definitely got something xxx
Excellent, visceral work Polly, as are the comments. It’s actually too shocking how utterly I/we were shocked by this years ago. There are too many examples I’ve just written off as “that’s just Mick/Alan/Brian” over the years. I’m now MCWOACA and absolutely do not put up with it anymore. Kisses to all x
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Maybe we should all just say to the offenders, eff off, grow up, stop being a t..t and go look in a bloody mirror. You really aren't all that wonderful and no, your'e not funny either. Caveat for the lovely etc etc men out there obviously. Caveat also for the genuinely creepy, predatory, dangerous individuals, there's a special place in hell for them.
This is my feeling! Or just show them a mirror?
There’s a special place in hell and possibly prison for the dangerous ones.
Yes Polly! let’s just carry a mirror about our person and hold it up when they start. Agree 100% about prison tho that’s another conversation re convictions and the success rate there!
I've been doing the same all week. When I was new to a team, the man who asked me far too many personal questions including about my sex life. When I told my female colleagues, they said "oh yeah, it's your turn, he's already tried all that with us". We waited until the end of the contract to complain about him but at least we were told he wouldn't be reemployed.
Then there was the older man who said "you look just like my girlfriend, she has hair your colour, she's a Pilates teacher and she's your age too". After she broke up with him, and after I left that role, I bumped into him in the office one day. He did a bait-and-switch by going in for a cheek kiss and turning his head at the last minute so our lips collided - gross. I had already been told there was no point complaining about him as nothing ever stuck.
Or going way back, the time I was still at school but did work experience on a newspaper where the men said "why do you ladies always wear trousers now, we never get to see a bit of leg these days".
Finally there's the IRL encounter I had with Gregg Wallace, at the Waitrose Summer Party one year (can't really get more middle class than that but I was in my early 30s so not Of A Certain Age at the time). I didn't meet him thank goodness but his voice was loud enough to carry to where I was, not particularly nearby. I forget what he said but the impression was lasting - he was absolutely vile.
Oh all so predictable…. It’s also not funny, cool or smoothie. Why must they be so inept?
But they really do think they’re cool/funny/smooth. Utterly delusional.